Bread Mystery

R

richard-in-cincy

Well-known member
A friend is having trouble with her bread falling during baking. Below is the thread where I was trying to troubleshoot, but I am at a loss. I've never had this happen. (start at the bottom for chronological progression).

Any ideas on what might be happening?

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Yes, I am using all the salt called for. I haven't altered the recipe in any way except adding whole wheat flour to the white.

I'll try the gluten. Thanks! It has to be heat related but I just don't get it.

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On Wed, Jun 2, 2010 at 2:04 PM, Richard wrote:

I am so happy you love joy. It is my “go to cookbook” as well. If you only own 1, it is the one.

What is happening is very unusual. It’s not like a cake, where the weak gluten structure is not set until it is baked into place and can fall if disturbed during baking. Bread depends on elastic gluten strands and the bubbles stretching it and puffing it up from the yeast. If your yeast spends itself, your loaf will fall, but that usually happens before it goes in the oven. I’ve never had a loaf rise and collapse during baking. The high temp is to set the crust structure quickly, to prevent the collapse.

One thing I forgot to ask: are you using the full salt called for in the recipe?

Salt controls yeast growth, if you’re not using the full amount, the yeast may be exploding out of control when they get hot. Salt also helps set the structure during baking.

Another thing would be to try adding extra gluten to your dough. You can get this in the flour section in the supermarket usually. When you’re using whole wheat or a non-glutinous flour, you still need the gluten for structure. Whole wheat doesn’t have as much gluten as white, that’s one of the reasons it’s a much denser bread. As I said above, the gluten is the framework that supports the bread structure during the rise.

You can also get a spray bottle to spritz your loaves and the oven for more moisture. Spritz the loaves before putting in the oven and you can also open the door a crack and spray more water in. Another solution is to add ice cubes to that pan you’re using. With the extra time required to go from ice to steam, you achieve a longer release of steam than just plain water.

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From:

Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2010 12:38 PM

To: Richard

Subject: Re: bread woes

Over all I have small pockets. With this last batch I had a couple big pockets on one end of the loaf..

Whole Wheat/white. I'm using a combination of white whole wheat and white flour. About 50/50.

According to 'Joy' (for 2 different recipes) I'm supposed to bake at 450 for 10 minutes (this last time I baked at 425 for about smileys/bigeyes.gif then lower the temp to 350 for 30 min. I never make it to 30 minutes. My the time I get to 350, the bread has already collapsed. I wonder if it's the initial temp. The temperature is the same for both recipes.

I've used two different recipes. One has 3 rises (rise, punch, knead, rise, split into pans, rise). I rise about an hour each time. The other recipe calls for 2 rises (rise, punch, split into pans, rise).

I'm using the quick rise whole wheat recipe in 'Joy' and I've also used the whole wheat sandwich bread recipe if this helps you.

According to 'Joy' in order to get the crustiness of the bread one must use steam so I've been putting a loaf pan in the oven to get hot during preheat, pour water into it, wait about 30 seconds, then put in my bread. I've also been rotating it in the oven.

On a side note, I just love 'Joy'. I'm always using it anymore. I didn't when you first gave it to me but it's become my go to cookbook. I absolutely love it!

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On Wed, Jun 2, 2010 at 11:08 AM, Richard wrote:

Hmmmm…some questions.

Whole wheat or white?

Rising time?

Baking temp?

One or two raisings?

What is the texture of the bread when you let it cool and cut it? Even grain? Small/large pockets?

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From:

Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2010 11:06 AM

To: Richard

Subject: bread woes

Can you help me with a problem with my bread? It's happened every time I have made it. It rises beautifully but when it's baking it falls to about half its size and no longer has a dome top. Do you know what my trouble is?

Thanks a ton!

 
me too...

but she says this is half way through the baking. But still, someone else has also suggested a shorter rising period to see if that is the reason.

 
What about oven temp? If it's not accurate, might not get correct intitial set. Also, what form

is she using to put the dough in? Free style? Loaf Pan? Is the pan too big, too small? If she lets the dough mound just over the lip of a loaf pan, then bakes at a constant temperature, it shouldn't fall. Also, there's often an issue with the age of the yeast. Did she bloom it first?

What about correctly measuring the flour. Scoop and shake? Spoon and scrape off the top of a cup? If there's not enough flour, there may not be enough proteins to hold the structure. So many things to go wrong, so little time.

 
I would say she needs to check the age of the yeast and her oven's temperature.

Sounds like the crust is not getting set enough to support the rising dough--perhaps she got a bad batch of yeast.

I'd advise her to try with new yeast and check to make sure her oven is correctly calibrated.

 
I don't think it's the yeast

the dough is obviously rising which means the yeast is viable and working, the bread is collapsing half way through the baking.

This is very perplexing to me. The yeast is good, the dough has risen. It makes it half way through baking, then collapses. Oven temp may be an issue, but she has it on 450 for the initial baking. Haven't asked about preheating, but she mentioned putting the pan in the bottom of the oven to get hot before she puts the bread in, so that she can add water for moisture, so assume there is preheating.

But even if the oven is off by 25-50 degrees, 400 should be more than enough to set the already risen dough, and if more, then there would be burning, which there is not.

In my experiences, collapsing dough happens before it goes in. Not when one puts perfectly risen doughs in the oven to bake.

Other thoughts?

 
Foe me, the last rise takes about half as long as the first rise

It shouldn't totally double during the last rise -- the oven rise will finish the rise.

 
It's odd--I've never had bread collapse halfway through the baking.

Is she baking with gas or electric? I wonder if something is happening to the oven heat.

 
I have never had this happen either but my guess would be

that the second rise is too long, so that the bread collapses.

Also, I have noticed that it's quite difficult to bake in humid and warm places. I tried baking a bread in the former Yugoslavia once and I just gave up. I find it's easier to bake yeast bread in a colder and dryer climate - if that makes sense. My take is that if it's too hot, the yeast will get into 'overdrive' and rises too fast. Am I still making sense? smileys/bigsmile.gif

In my experience, breads who rise in a cooler (not cold!) room are more predictable and sturdier.

Is it hot and humid in her kitchen?

 
With the combo of flours, 50/50 white whole wheat and reg flour, the water amt may

need adjusting. Not sure if the recipe calls for 50/50, it usually is a 75/25 combo.
The cook's illustrated rising/baking method works well.

Good luck!

 
My guess.....

as others pointed out, I think she is allowing the bread to rise for too long, by the time it goes into the oven, it will have an initial oven spring, but collapse afterward.

I would reduce considerably the rising time, and possibly the amount of yeast used too - this should fix the problem

I wonder how much yeast is called for in her recipe - I find that less yeast often is better than too much

 
Se mentions the "quick rise" system. Does that involve extra yeast? It's possible the problem

is a combination of an under-kneaded dough, and too much yeast. The extra yeast would give an initial big rise, whether the dough is properly kneaded or not, but then in the oven it could deflate if the gluten structure is not in place.

Even if the dough is well-kneaded too much yeast could cause it to overrise and then break down during baking.

In my own experience, I've had loaves that were a bit over-risen collapse on me when I slash them. I've baked them anyway and they re-rise in the oven, but they're not the best bread.

 
My two cents

Bet it is a combo of things.

Oven temp is probably off some, second rise is probably too long and have her try making it without a pan of water in the oven- just use a spritz as you suggest. I suspect something to do with the amount of water and the oven temp.

 
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