ISO: ISO: Recomendation on New Knife. Type & Brand ?? ...

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kiwichris-melb-oz

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Hi Does anytime use an east/west or Santuku/Deba type knife ? what are they like better than traditional western shapes ??.

For Christmas/birthday iv been allowed smileys/smile.gif a new knife. I have a fair mix but rather like the Shun's and Ice Bear any thoughts?? would be most appreciated.

PS. halfway thru the big PB cookie bakeoff smileys/smile.gif

 
Quick, Chris, you can go in and edit it. Most everyone is asleep right

now and they'll never know. Go into your post and on the left hand side is a box. If it is your post you will see "edit" as the first one in the box. Click on it and you can change what ever you want. You just can't edit the subject line which is where I always get into trouble. Hurry before they wake up....

 
I recommend going to a store that will let you handle the knives and see what feels good in...

...in your hand, before buying. People prefer different weights of handle and blade, and you should check them out before buying.

I have 4 different santoku knives in the kitchen, ranging from very expensive to less so. I find that the one I and Mike use the most is - which surprised me - the KitchenAid. We also have a Wustoff, a Furi, and a Farberware (which the hubby says is... well, a naughty word that indicates of poor quality). We keep a very inexpensive one from Ikea in our camping ware, and it's actually done fairly well but it doesn't get used often.

The KitchenAid has the best balance, size, and handle shape and material for us.

But again, you really should go feel them out for yourself. smileys/smile.gif

 
Hi Chris, I'm not sure what you're asking, but are you considering the Asian style that has a

different slant on one side of the blade than the other? I have some relatively inexpensive ones that dh brought back from China. There's a definitely difference in the slant of the blade on one side than the other. Don't know how to put it other than that. The cleaver is the same on both sides. I haven't noticed any big difference, but then I have Henckel and use them most of the time. One thing, is are you left-handed? It seems to me they wouldn't work well then and the other thing is we can't use the Chef's Choice 300 sharpener/honer on them, they would have to be steeled.

If this wasn't what you meant, just disregard, lol.

 
I just mentioned your post to dh and he had just read an article about them in Wine Spectator.

Perhaps this will help.

Tastes: IN THE KITCHEN with Sam Gugino: A Cut Above
By Sam Gugino
From Wine Spectator magazine, December 15, 2008 issue

If you have ever watched a Samurai epic, you know that Japanese warriors pay a great deal of attention to their swords. That same level of attention has gone into the making of Japanese kitchen knives. Sales of Japanese-made knives have skyrocketed in the past 10 to 15 years, according to Jeremy Watson, sales manager for Korin Japanese Trading Corp. in New York. "We deal mostly with professional chefs, but in the last five to six years, we've seen many more retail customers as well," he reports.

Japanese knives have become so popular that American and European knife manufacturers are now making knives in the same style. German-based Wüsthof, a premier producer of kitchen knives, sells more than a dozen versions of the popular all-purpose Japanese knife called santoku in two collections.

Unfortunately, the popularity of Japanese knives has led to some poor imitations. There are dozens of Japanese-style knives, most commonly of the santoku variety, that are as worthless as $50 espresso makers. You often get what you pay for. Expect to shell out at least $150 for a good Japanese chef's knife. However, there are factors other than price to consider as well.

Japanese knives are divided into two categories: traditional and Western-style. Japanese chefs almost exclusively use traditional Japanese knives. Western-style Japanese knives fuse some of the elements of traditional Japanese knives with aspects of Western knives (also known as European or German knives)

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One thing to consider is the bevel, or the angle at which the two sides of the blade come together on the knife's edge. On a traditional Western knife, it is 50/50, meaning the same angle can be found on both sides of the edge. On a traditional Japanese knife, it's 90/10. On a Western-style Japanese knife, it's 70/30. "(Japanese knives) give a more precise, cleaner cut," Watson says. If you've ever seen Japanese chefs work their magic at sushi bars, you know what he means.

Western-style Japanese knives resemble Western knives in appearance, from the handle to the shape of the blade. However, there are notable differences. The steel in all Japanese knives, including Western-style ones, is harder, which enables them to hold an edge longer. They also have thinner blades, which generally makes them lighter. These two qualities, above all else, have earned Western-style Japanese knives many converts. "I've moved from German to (Western-style) Japanese knives," says Sarah Jay, author of Knives Cooks Love (Andrews McMeel). "I have small hands, and the Japanese knives are less fatiguing."

But Norman Weinstein, author of Mastering Knife Skills (Stewart, Tabori & Chang), remains unconvinced. Weinstein, who teaches knife skills classes at the Institute of Culinary Education in New York, is a long-time advocate of Western knives, especially those that are German-made. "There is a mystique about Japanese knives," Weinstein says. "They are made of excellent steel and they are thinner. But the idea that Japanese knives cause less stress (on the hand) makes no sense to me."

To illustrate his point about lighter not necessarily being better, Weinstein asks each of the students in the 130 classes he teaches every year, including some small-handed women, to cut a rib of celery using two Western chef's knives: one an 8-inch, the other a heavier 10-inch. Most of his students (including me, when I attended one of his classes) are stunned to find that the heavier knife cuts more easily.

So, East or West? I tried out three different brands of the Western-style Japanese chef's knives, called gyutou, from Korin. All three, the Togiharu ($157), Masanobu VG-10 ($345) and Misono UX10 ($210), had 9.4-inch blades. All had good balance, but the Misono's larger wooden handle felt more comfortable in my hand than the smaller, resin-based Togiharu handle, even though my hands aren't particularly large. The Masanobu had a more traditional Japanese cylindrical handle, making it necessary for me to choke up on the blade to gain more control.

All three cut like a dream, better than any Western chef's knife I've ever used. The Togiharu and Misono cut onion slices so thin, it reminded me of Paul Sorvino slicing garlic with a razor blade in Goodfellas. Despite the reputation of Japanese knives for being light, all three weighed in between 8 and 9 ounces, about the same as my Wüsthof 10-inch German knife. The combination of heft and sharpness made cutting harder vegetables, like fennel, a breeze.

I also tried a Togiharu santoku ($110), which, at 6.4 inches, fell between the Chinese-made Analon santoku (7.75 inches) and the German-made Kuhn Rikon santoku (5.75 inches) that I own. While Analon and Kuhn Rikon aren't considered top-of-the-line knife makers, they illustrate how widespread the popularity of the santoku-style knife is. The Togiharu ran rings around both, even though the Kuhn Rikon has a nonstick coating.

If faced with a choice between the santoku and gyutou styles, I'd choose the latter, which gives you the sharpness of Japanese steel with the heft of a Western chef's knife.

There are some caveats. Unlike Western knives, Western-style Japanese knives have no bolster, the thick band of smooth, unsharpened steel that runs along the heel of the blade. Without a bolster, your forefinger can bang against the unprotected heel, which can cause soreness or blisters. Of course, this depends on how you grip the knife. I've always pressed my middle finger against the bolster when using a chef's knife. But with the Togiharu, I had to pull my finger back a bit and squeeze a little harder with my thumb and forefinger on either side of the blade. Watson says he hasn't gotten complaints from customers about soreness or blisters.

A more important issue is how to maintain the sharpness of the knife, something that far too many amateur cooks don't pay enough attention to. "People think that because they paid $125 for a knife, they don't have to do anything (for upkeep)," Weinstein says. "It's like buying a car and not thinking you need to put gas in."

Western knives can be sharpened in three ways: using a stone (though few people will take the time to learn how to do this properly); using a manual or electric knife sharpener; or by sending them to a knife sharpening service. Western-style Japanese knives can also be sharpened with a stone, but not with a manual or electric sharpener, because of the bevel. The bevel also makes honing the blade, which sets the edge but doesn't sharpen, difficult on a honing steel. However, there are fine and superfine stones that hone Japanese knives and remove surface scratches. Japanese knives should be sent to a sharpening service that knows how to handle them.

Finally, maintaining your kitchen knives involves more than sharpening and honing. Wash them by hand, not in the dishwasher—the heat can damage the steel—and without abrasives, which can scratch the metal. Wipe them dry and put them away after they are rinsed to eliminate spots, and keep the knife tips from getting damaged in drying racks. Store knives in a knife rack or on a magnet bar; knives stored in drawers can get nicked—and possibly nick you. Take care of your knives and they'll take care of you, as they did the Samurai warriors.

Sam Gugino has been writing for Wine Spectator since 1994, becoming a regular columnist in 1996.

HOW TO GET IT
A Cook's Wares Beaver Falls, Pa., (800) 915-9788, www.cookswares.com
Chef Knives to Go Madison, Wis., (608) 232-1137, www.chefknivestogo.com
Chefs Colorado Springs, Colo., (800) 338-3232, www.chefscatalog.com
Country Knives Intercourse, Pa., (717) 768-3818, www.countryknives.com
Korin Japanese Trading Corp. New York, (800) 626-2172, www.korin.com
Sur La Table Seattle, (800) 243-0852, www.surlatable.com

 
Santoku info from Wikipedia...

"The santoku bōchō (三徳包丁, santoku bōchō?) or bunka bōchō (文化包丁, bunka bōchō?) is a general-purpose kitchen knife originating in Japan. Its unshouldered blade, which is typically between five and eight inches long, has a flat edge and a sheepsfoot blade which curves in an angle approaching 60 degrees at the point. The top of the santoku's handle is in line with the top of the blade, giving the chef's fingers plenty of room underneath."

There are pics at the link, too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santoku

 
Kiwi Chris, are you right or left handed? It'll make a difference...

I have two Santoku knives, the Wusthof Grand Prix, with the hollow ground edge, and the Shun Classic (no hollows).

In that Korin Link, note that those are right handed knives (left handed ones cost a lot more).

In a lot of Japanese knives, only one side of the blade is beveled (the bevel starts where the blade is darker gray, on the bottom half of the blade). The other side is straight. This allows sushi chefs to get a straight, perpendicular cut from a rectagular block of fish.

Note that the bevel of those Japanese knives start about 1/2" or so from the cutting edge of the blade - most German knives have a bevel (on both sides of the blade) only a milimeter or so above the cutting edge.

Although Shun is a Japanese line, I have a feeling the lines available in the US have been geared towards the Western market, so that it's more Western than the traditional Japanese knives.

The Shun Classic is also a right handed knife, as the blade is offset from the handle more on the right side than the left side, and the D-shaped handle fits a right hand better than a left.

Assuming you are right handed (like me), I use both the Shun and the Wusthof. The Wusthof is lighter, and the blade is thinner, which works great for some applications. However, I prefer the Shun, as I love the feel of the Pakka wood handle, and the D-shape is soooo comfortable. (I have fairly small hands.)

The Global Deba (right handed) feels a lot different from the more common German knives, so you really have to feel it in your hands. It's a lot lighter, and better for fine, meticulous work, but I think you have to be pretty skilled. The handle feels too thin for me to get a good grip on it, especially if my hands are greasy...

Ask about the sharpening of these knives too - if you get a Japanese knife that's beveled only on one side, it would be best if you could sharpen it yourself on a whetstone. You shouldn't use a electric knife sharpener - you'll ruin the edge.

Hope this is helpful smileys/smile.gif Nice present!

 
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